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Steve Martin's avatar

Hi Paul, and a belated Happy New Year to you.

Very good read, and I see no cracks in your reasoning. My worry though, is with the Western ruling class's controlled demolition of their own human resources ... which will fall first, China or the West, and which, if either, will be the first to rise from the ashes?

A recent feed in my YouTube recommendations reminded me of a book I've heard about, but not read, Joseph Tainter's "The Collapse of Complex Societies".

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052138673X?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tpbk_7&storeType=ebooks&qid=1736576758&sr=8-1

The YouTube podcast is a reading of a succinct summary of the book. Although the podcast is 20 minutes long, it is understandable at 1.5 speed, well worth the time ... and reminded me of another broader, though more abstract, conclusion I'd come to years ago while reading philosopy ... Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems point to similar limits of logic. Without going into non-linear logic like fractal theory and those beautiful mandelbrot sets, linear logic, and language (Wittgenstein's Ladder), eventually collapse into contradictions and tautologies. There is good reason "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" had to be written by a mathematician.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drwuaSA8f28

I am going to prompt for a critical summary of the book through Perplexity Pro and GPT 4.o, but will also scrounge around the net looking for a copy cheaper than the outrageous paywall Amazon Japan has built around it ... $100.00 for a Kindle version?

Through those prompt driven summaries, I thought it would be interesting to see where your essay anticipates and dovetail's with Tainter's historical analysis.

In listening to the summary, I thought Tainter book did a better job than Jared Diamond's "Collapse", of which I have both a Kindle and paperback version. But one paragraph from Diamond has stuck with me enough to have often quoted from it. I will leave that quote with you here.

"Thus, Norse society’s structure created a conflict between the short-term interests of those in power, and the long-term interests of the society as a whole. Much of what the chiefs and clergy valued proved eventually harmful to the society. Yet the society’s values were at the root of its strengths as well as of its weaknesses. The Greenland Norse did succeed in creating a unique form of European society, and in surviving for 450 years as Europe’s most remote outpost. We modern Americans should not be too quick to brand them as failures, when their society survived in Greenland for longer than our English-speaking society has survived so far in North America. Ultimately, though, the chiefs found themselves without followers. The last right that they obtained for themselves was the privilege of being the last to starve."

Diamond, Jared. Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed: Revised Edition (p. 276). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Cheers Paul.

Steve

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Paul Stone's avatar

Another intersecting clarifying consideration I failed to add into the stack is, ‘Chinas manufacturing base trade relationship with U.S. built China, now as that relationship cannot also save them from financial exhaustion it matters very little in their considerations for what to do next. Essentially no need to preserve the relationship if there’s a payoff to China in destroying it, with the aim to then finally dominate it.

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